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Jay R. Brooks on Beer

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The Jaguar from Patagonia

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If you’re like me, when you think of beer from Argentina you think of Quilmes. It’s been the best-selling brand for decades and since being acquired by InBev, has been imported to over a dozen countries, including the United States. But there are actually over forty breweries in Argentina.

Another one of them, Patagonia, announced today they will be importing their beer into the U.S. through Aladdin Beverage. They already received label aproval and the first shipments should hit the docks of New York sometime in May.

From the press release:

Brewed and bottled in the oldest Brewery in Argentina (est. 1884), Patagonia represents the exact type of brand which Aladdin looks for. “Patagonia is a wonderful tasting Blond Ale. I love Blond Ales, so I have a bias towards them, but this is truly one of the best Blonds I have tasted. So much so that we have entered Patagonia into the 2008 World Beer Cup and I think we have a good chance of winning,” states Ted O’Connor, President of Aladdin Beverage.

Patagonia prides itself on being brewed with only all natural ingredients. In fact they go one step further and adhere to an old law dictated by Bavarian Duke William IV, which stated, beer is only considered premium if it is brewed with pure malted barley, hops, yeast, and water. That is it!

Curious about that odd-looking label? I was, and here’s the answer. Patagonia’s logo is a stylized representation of the jaguar. Apparently, jaguars were common in Patagonia (roughly the southern third of South America) until the 19th century, when they were hunted to near extinction by European explorers and settlers. To the native population, jaguars were sacred as a symbol of power and in some circles even considered a god. They were often important in local religions and were also associated with Courage, fertility, intelligence and magic.

The Jaguar is one of the four “big cats,” and the largest in the Western Hemisphere. The others include leopards, lions and tigers, oh my.

The Patagonia Jaguar.

St. James Gate For Sale?

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Back in October of last year, I got slapped around quite a bit when I suggested that Guinness had closed St. James Gate already, as I heard the rumor quite some time before that it was in the works and had sort of figured that the deed had been done. Turns out I was wrong, but not as wrong as some of my critics supposed. I was just ahead of my time. A friend returned recently from Dublin (thanks Chris) and sent me this article from the Irish Independent entitled Last Orders for Brewery as Sale Looms.

The article begins:

The closure of the iconic Guinness brewery at St James’s Gate in Dublin could be one step closer after drinks giant Diageo appointed three sets of consultants to oversee the sale of the prestigious Dublin site. The move away from the city centre could net Diageo a windfall of up to €3bn for the 56-acre plot.

In an effort to keep this from happening, city councilors passed a motion trying to make sure that by law there must be a brewery at the current location. It is believed that “this could restrict future development at the site, thereby reducing its market value.” So it appears that even the City of Dublin is trying to keep Diageo from closing down the nearly 250-year old Guinness brewery at St. James Gate. But if I had to guess, as an international conglomerate, I imagine Diageo will figure out a way around such a small obstacle as that if they really want to unload it.

 

 

Alphabet Soup: A-B Enters the Fray Between S&N and CG for BBH

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This is a story that’s really been going on for some time now, at least a year, probably more. In a nutshell, the BBH (or Baltic Beverages Holding) was created in 1991 by a 50/50 joint venture between Oy Hartwall (a Finnish brewing group) and Procordia Beverages, best known for Pripps (then a Swedish company). The plan was to acquire breweries in the lucrative areas of Russia and the Baltic. And little by little, they did just that. But in 1995, another Swedish company, Orkla, bought Pripps an created a new company, Pripp-Ringnes, only to then merge with Carlsberg in 2000. As a result, the Carlsberg Group became a 50% owner of BBH. Two years later, Scottish & Newcastle bought Hartwell and that’s how we got to today, with BBH being a 50/50 joint venture between Carlsberg and S&N. In the meantime, BBH became the owner of 19 breweries in Russia, Kazakhstan, the Ukraine, Uzbekistan and the Baltics (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) which gives them a commanding share of the market, nearly 40% of the fifth largest — and possibly fastest growing — beer economy in the world. Not surprisingly, the predatory nature of corporations generally means that other companies have developed in interest in BBH.

Lately things have heated up with potential take-over bids. The main players have been primarily the Carlsberg Group and Heineken, both of whom have attempted hostile takeover bids to wrest control of BBH from S&N. The negotiations have been very public and quite contentious with accusations of bad faith and underhanded dealings flying around so fast and furious it’s like a blizzard. I’ve been following it somewhat casually but haven’t written about it before now. What’s changed? Today the London Telegraph is reporting that Anheuser-Busch is considering “a potential £4.6bn bid for full control of BBH.”

From the Telegraph article:

S&N already owns 50 per cent of BBH alongside Carlsberg. But the Edinburgh-based brewer is preparing a bid for full control of BBH as part of its defence against Carlsberg, which is plotting its own £10bn takeover bid for S&N as part of a consortium with Heineken.

S&N’s plan would be to finance a bid for BBH by offering a 25 per cent stake to a minority partner.

Anheuser-Busch has long coveted a place in the rapidly expanding Russian beer market and replacing Carlsberg in a new joint venture with S&N would offer it part ownership of the country’s leading brewer.

I was pretty sure A-B had a long-standing relationship with Carlsberg. They definitely used to distribute Carlsberg and their Elephant Malt here in the U.S. It’s interesting to see how quickly any loyalty they might otherwise have felt to Carlsberg over their years of business together goes out the window when the dollar signs twinkle in their eyes. This whole scenario reminds me of your average Godzilla movie where the giant lumbering monsters of business do battle with each other while at the same time stomping on and smashing to bits the very world in which they, too, live. Whatever happens to those flattened buildings (and people) destroyed in their wake are somebody else’s problem, they’re simply externalities. We’re merely the frightened tiny ants of people who can do nothing except watch as they destroy our city.

Rhetoric aside, it will certainly be interesting now to see how this plays out. I know Heineken desperately wants a bigger piece of the Russia beer pie. That’s specifically the reason they bought Krusovice from the Radeburger Group last year. As for A-B’s interest, with slowing sales of domestic beer, I can only imagine they’d love a quick fix like this.

 

Funny Camel, Serious Beer

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There’s a nice profile in Haaretz of a new Israeli brewery, the Dancing Camel Brewing Co., which opened last August. It’s the brainchild of David Cohen, a former New York accountant who followed his dream to open a microbrewery in Israel.

From the Haafretz article:

Cohen, a long-time amateur brewmaster, now aims to challenge the traditional Israeli palate and introduce casual beer drinkers to a taste beyond just Goldstar or Carlsberg. For Rosh Hashanah, Dancing Camel made a pomegranate beer and after Sukkot, an etrog (citron) flavored brew was introduced. Last month’s Hanukkah offering was a delicious stout with cherry and vanilla flavors, similar to the traditional holiday sufganiya jelly donut.

Their regular lineup of beers includes a Pale Ale, an India Pale Ale. a Hefe-Wit and a Stout. Seasonal fare includes a Cherry Vanila Stout, The Golem (a big 9.5% beer) and Six Thirteen Pomegranate Ale, which was made as a seasonal for Rosh Hashana. The name has an interesting story, too:

In Talmudic lore, the Pomegranate is reputed to contain 613 seeds, corresponding both to the number of commandments in the Bible and the number of nerves in the Human body. The pomegranate’s place on the Rosh Hashana table (as well as inevitably, the table cloth) is a timeless tradition in the Jewish home, reflecting the wish that our blessings for the New Year be as abundant as the seeds of the “Rimon”. A delightfully refreshing pale ale with the unmistakable earthy fruitiness of pomegranates. At 5.8% abv, Six Thirteen — 5768 allows for indulgence without guilt. Truly a beer worth praying for.

 

Interestingly, He-Brew’s first beer, Genesis Ale, was also flavored with pomegranates. The article also mentions that Dancing Camel is one of only a handful of microbreweries in Israel, suggesting that their craft industry is just getting off the ground. Cohen is quoted as saying that “his audience is growing more receptive. Israelis are not necessarily drinking more beer, but drinking better beers.”

Dancing Camel seems to have a nice sense of humor and I love their motto: Funny Camel, Serious Beer. And I think it’s cool that he’s trying not only to do traditional styles but also to use local ingredients to create something new.

“Part of the point is not just to come over here to brew an English ale. My intentions were to use Israeli spices, and ingredients. If not for the barley and wheat, then at least for the spices to give it something completely Israeli.” Mr. Cohen flavors his beers with local ingredients like date syrup, cilantro, oranges and cloves.

 

Top 10 Beer Stories of 2007

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As the year winds down yet again — didn’t we just do this a year ago? — everybody and his brother has a top ten list for the year and I’m still no different. It helps, I think, to stop and reflect on what happened over the previous year which puts the whole year in perspective and makes it easier to prepare for the coming one. So here are my choices for the top ten beer stories of 2007.
 

Irish Brewing in the Bronze Age: While seemingly a historical side note story, I think this has the potential to change how we view beer’s history in civilization, especially in Europe, where most our modern brewing heritage has its origins. If bronze age Ireland was brewing it means the impact of beer on mankind began far earlier than originally believed.

Lewes Arms Boycott Successful: I’m a sucker for the underdog and the small fry. The citizens of a small pub in the middle of nowhere took on pub giant Greene King to save their local beer being served in its home town. Greene King foolishly let it go on far longer than was prudent but eventually saw the light and relented.

Sam Adams vs. Sam Adams: The Boston Beer Company, owner of the trademarked Samuel Adams eponymous beers, went head to head in late October with a flesh and blood Sam Adams running for mayor of Portland. In a battle between a corporation’s fictional, but oddly legal, personhood and the real life variety, my money’s always on the real Sam Adams. For Boston Beer it was a public relations disaster and even their half-hearted apology seemed flat. On the plus side, Boston Beer did announce they’d be brewing at the old Rolling Rock brewery in Latrobe, Pennsylvania, which is good for that town. The one they were planning in Freetown, Massachusetts, on the other hand, after months of rumors, was finally canceled.

The Loss of Steve Harrison: Steve Harrison was Sierra Nevada Brewing‘s first employee and was as much responsible for its success, especially early on, as owner Ken Grossman and the rest of the crew from Chico. When he went missing under mysterious circumstances in August, it took a week of searching the area before his body turned up in the river. His passing was a huge and terrible loss to the brewing industry.

It’s Official! Double-Digit Craft Beer Growth Again!: It was another terrific year for craft beer and although there are problems in the horizon, three years of double-digit growth suggests that craft beer is on the right track. Barring some foreseen shortages, things are likely to continue to be rosy for the foreseeable future.

Widmer & Redhook Merger: Rumored since at least January, Widmer and Redhook agreed to merge in November.

Michael Jackson Passes Away: This was a huge and somewhat unexpected blow to the cause of better beer. Many of us who’d known Michael for a time had speculated about his health and last year he had finally publicly announced that he’d been battling Parkinson’s for at least ten years. I know I breathed a sigh of relief because I knew Parkinson’s could be treated and wasn’t the immediate threat it had once been. So when I got the news I was taken aback, as were most of us in the industry. It was news of the worst kind, especially coming on the heels of the losses of several other beer industry personalities throughout 2007: Alan Eames, Steve Harrison and John White. As I’ve said many times before, Michael’s impact on the craft beer industry here in the U.S. and better beer throughout the world cannot be overestimated. He was a singular talent that I can’t imagine being replaced. And beyond the loss to the industry, for me personally I think Michael Jackson’s death should be nearer the top because it’s doubly difficult and surprisingly emotional to lose a friend so unexpectedly.

Assaults on Beer by Neo-Prohibitionists & Wine Writers: Perhaps because of craft beers’ recent gains and renewed attention, the number of attacks on beer by both anti-alcohol groups and misguided and ignorant beverage and food journalists seemed to be on the rise with hardly a week passing without yet another egregious example. Neo-prohibitionists accused beer of all sorts of evil and wine writers blasted beer with all manner of misinformation and twisted statistics. Here’s a sample of some of the worst:

Coors & Miller to Merge U.S. Operations: In an unexpected, if not altogether surprising move, the second and third largest American beer companies decided to pool their efforts in competing against number one. What the impact will be on the rest of the industry still remains to be seen, but I, for one, am not convinced it will be all for the better or that there’s nothing to fret about.

The Hop and Malt Shortages: The shortages of hops got most of the attention but shortages of malt is just as serious. This could not have happened at a worse time for the industry as shortages quite possibly could have disastrous consequences for continuing the roll that craft beer has been on for a half-decade.

And what will next year bring? See tomorrow’s post with my predictions for the beer industry in 2008.

 

SABMiller Gets A Blue Tongue

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SABMiller announced yesterday that they are purchasing Australia’s Bluetongue Brewery in a joint venture with Coca-Cola Amatil Limited to be known as Pacific Beverages Pty Limited. The purchase price was not revealed though it is estimated to be around $20 million USD. It has also been reported that they are considering building a greenfield brewery to brew additional brands for distribution by Pacific Beverages in region including Peroni Nastro Azzurro, Pilsner Urquell, Miller Genuine Draft and other Miller brands.

Bluetongue was founded in 2003 in Newcastle, New South Wales. They have an annual capacity of over 50,000 hectolitres and make five different beers: Bluetongue Premium Lager, Bluetongue Premium Light, Bluetongue Traditional Pilsner, Bluetongue Alcoholic Ginger Beer and Bondi Blonde (a low-carb beer). In their four-year history, Bluetongue has shown remarkable growth including 70% over the past year. Earlier this year they even hired Paris Hilton as a spokesperson for Bondi Beer. And Bluetongue is Whale Safe Beer.

 

According to the press release, here’s the story of the brewery’s name:

Bluetongue’s name originates from the blue-tongued lizard, one of Australia’s favourite native creatures. They are about 30cm long, have a large fierce looking head and are easily recognised by their bright blue tongue which they stick out to warn off predators. Blue-tongues are often found basking in the sun in the Australian bush and in backyards across suburban Australia.

 

Costa Rica Just Says No to Swiss Beer

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I guess it’s good to know that other country’s bureaucracies are every bit as irrational as my own, especially when dealing with the regulation of alcohol and other so-called “controlled” substances. It seems the Latin American country of Costa Rica is having issues with a Swiss beer, Hanfblute, because it contains the essence of marijuana to impart the cannabis aroma in the nose. It’s no secret, that information is listed on the label and Hanfblute has been sold in the Central American nation for four years. And, of course, marijuana is also illegal in Switzerland, too, meaning if there were any mind-altering cannabis (or THC) in it, the Swiss would have put the kibosh on the beer long ago. They do use hemp leaves and flowers in the brewing of the beer, but it contains nothing that could get you high.

Guiselle Amador, the head of the Instituto de Alcoholismo y Farmacodependencia (IAFA) — Costa Rica’s pharmaceutical and drug dependency institute — “expressed her concern for the sale of the beer in Costa Rica for its negative implications that it is good for ones health.” The IAFA is asking the health minister to investigate the importer’s permit and take the beer off the market. Despite the fact that the beer contains no marijuana whatsoever, she’s afraid it might persuade people to start smoking pot. Why, you might reasonably ask, would she think that? Apparently there’s a cannabis leaf on the label (pictured below) which she believes is a subliminal message which could entice people to begin smoking weed. I don’t know what Amador is smoking but if she thinks seeing a marijuana leaf on a beer label will lead people to fire up a spleef then clearly her country has more troubles than just this.
 

Here’s one logo:

And here’s the bottle label:

 

Clearly they’re skating on the periphery of what polite society deems acceptable with their label, but the family owned Brauerei Locher brews at least twenty different beers, of which the Hanfblute is only a small part. This is no hippie commune beer but a serious beer with a nod to a tradition that predates the use of hops in beer. Are they having a little fun with it? Sure, why not? They know the market for their beer. In my experience, hemp enthusiasts are fanatical in their love of the versatile weed. So why not market to a supportive audience?

The first hemp beer I remember was from Frederick Brewing in Maryland. I think it was called Hempen Ale and was made using hemp seeds (I’m shooting on memory here, if anybody knows for sure, let me know). I also remember shortly thereafter having a meeting with Mario Celotto (the former Oakland Raider and now former owner of Humboldt Brewing in Arcata, California) and suggesting to him that with his backyard’s reputation he should make a hemp beer. Several months later (I think around 1998?) Humboldt Hemp Beer made its debut and is still being brewed by Firestone Walker under the same label (they bought the Humboldt brand in 2003).

But I still can’t understand why people in government agencies are convinced that mere labels will corrupt people to the point where they’re afraid to allow citizens to even see something they find objectionable. It’s obviously ridiculous that seeing a cannabis leaf would make someone unable to control the urge to become a drug addict. It’s equally ridiculous that seeing Santa Claus on a label will make kids want to drink beer or seeing nudity on a label will .. well, I don’t really know what the easily offended think seeing nudity will do to harm society, that one will always be a head-scratcher to me. But we see this time and time again in the United States and — as this story makes clear — around the world, too. Most people if asked would probably say the national pastime is baseball and worldwide it has to be football (soccer). Personally, I think the true favorite pastime is trying to control other people in what they think, what they see and what they can do. Determining what is moral or good and trying to impose it on the rest of us seems to occupy a lot of a certain kind of person’s time and energy. The rest of us are just trying to enjoy ourselves and live our lives as best we can. But as long as there are people whose agenda includes stopping people from doing things that they don’t like or making decisions about how to live their lives that they disagree with, the remaining majority of us won’t be able to rest. As for marijuana, my favorite comedian, Bill Hicks, said it best:

Why is marijuana against the law? It grows naturally upon our planet. Doesn’t the idea of making nature against the law seem to you a bit… paranoid? You know what I mean? It’s nature. How do you make nature against the f#%king law? It grows everywhere. Serves a thousand different functions, all of them positive. To make marijuana against the law is like saying God made a mistake.

Which I find doubly ironic since most rabid anti-drug and anti-alcohol organizations seem religiously based or at least motivated by some weird morality that they believe is based on religion. But I also think Hicks’ argument works for beer, as well, which is likewise made from all natural ingredients growing wild on the planet. Ive said it before a million times, but if those of us who just want to be left alone and not told what to do and think, we have to remain ever-vigilant against this kind of nonsense wherever and whenever we can.

 

Drink, Drank, Drunk: Who’s Number One?

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Last year, the Organization for Economic Co-Operation and Development surveyed per capita consumption of alcohol across the world and ranked the top fifteen. They ranked them a bit differently than most of these surveys do. They looked at the raw amount of alcohol consumed each year per person rather than the number of servings. This apparently had the effect of equalizing the results across beer, wine and spirits since they all have very different amounts of alcohol.

Below is a table of the results:
 

NationLiters Per Capita Annual Pure Alcohol ConsumptionLiters Per Capita Beer ConsumptionLegal Drinking Age
1. Luxembourg15.584.416 (beer)
18 (spirits)
2. France14.235.516 (beer)
18 (spirits)
3. Ireland14.2131.118
4. Hungary1275.318 (to purchase—none for consumption)
5. Czech Republic11.8156.918
6. Spain11.583.816 (drinking)
18 (purchasing)
7. Denmark11.589.918 (bars only; otherwise no limit)
8. Portugal12.959.616
9. Switzerland11.257.316 (beer)
18 (spirits)
10. Austria11.1108.316 (beer)
18 (spirits)
11. Germany10.5116.814 (beer)
16 (wine)
18 (spirits)
12. United Kingdom10.49918 (for purchase)
13. Belgium10.39316
14. Netherlands10.17916 (beer)
18 (spirits)
15. Australia9.8109.918

 

As a result of the methodology, the top fourteen are all European countries and only the last nation lies outside of the EU. Previous studies, along with this new one, seem to point to social, political and cultural factors — along with tax structures — to account for this seeming anomaly. The new data, which includes 2006, is available from the OECD for a pretty hefty amount — much more than my budget will allow — but there is data from previous years available if you dig around. And while the numbers have changed over the decades, from year to year they change only slightly so we can see where other countries below the top fifteen probably fall in the rankings. Looking at 2003, the last year I could find with complete statistics, the top 15 are almost exactly the same (only numbers 14 and 15 are reversed). So below those, here are some of the likely remaining rankings (based on 2003 data).

 

  1. Finland
  2. New Zealand
  3. Korea
  4. United States
  5. Poland
  6. Italy
  7. Canada
  8. Japan
  9. Slovak Republic
  10. Sweden
  11. Iceland
  12. Norway
  13. Mexico

 
The U.S. barely cracks the top twenty and Canada comes in at Number 22. You can also see how beer consumption is very different from overall alcohol. The top ten for beer are:

 

  1. Czech Republic (156.9)
  2. Ireland (131.1)
  3. Germany (116.8)
  4. Australia (109.9)
  5. Austria (108.3)
  6. United Kingdom (99)
  7. Belgium (93)
  8. Denmark (89.9)
  9. Luxembourg (84.4)
  10. Spain (83.8)

 
There is a note, however, in the raw data excel spreadsheet indicating that Luxembourg’s data does not “accurately reflect consumption by residents, due to significant levels of consumption by tourists and cross border traffic of alcoholic beverages.” That seems to suggest that data for Luxembourg is overstated and that it may not be as high as expressed in this study. So if we throw them out of the beer consumption list, the Netherlands slide into the number ten spot with liters per capita of 79.

So, while there’s nothing terribly surprising here, I thought it was an interesting peek at who’s drinking what and how much around the world.

 

Quick Chilling Beer With Dry Ice

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The New Zealand Herald reported Tuesday that a Massey University student in Auckland has invented a novel device to quickly chill beer in a fraction of the time, potentially allowing people to leave the cooler at home. It’s one of thirty inventions being exhibited at the three-day Design Exposure 2007, which began Wednesday, at Massey University’s Auckland School of Design.

Twenty-two-year-old New Zealander Kent Hodgson came up with the idea for his device after being frustrated by warm beer at a backyard barbecue earlier this year. He calls it a “Huski,” and it’s described as using a “rapid cooling beverage process” involving dry ice.

“You have plastic cooling cells which are pressed down into the dock which houses the liquid carbon dioxide. The liquid CO2 expands and is pressurized into dry ice in the base of the cooling cells … in a moment.

“You then pop it into your drink and then proceed from there as you normally would.”

With a surface temperature of minus 78.5C, dry ice has a cooling capacity almost four times that of the same amount of regular ice.

“The cooling power is almost instant and is utilized for several minutes and it doesn’t dilute the drink like ice would,” said Mr. Hodgson.

One canister can chill a little more than a case of beer bottles for only about seven cents. But the initial cost of the device will likely be around $50, so you’ll probably have to do a lot of drinking to make it cost effective. Still, if it allows you to not have to lug a cooler around with you that could be a good thing.

The real question is whether or not the rapid cooling using dry ice will damage the beer in the process. Generally speaking, putting beer into the freezer to quick chill it will cause the beer to break down chemically causing chill haze, producing little floating particles in the beer and altering its taste (and not for the better). That’s why it’s never a good idea to put your beer in the freezer. Does dry ice do the same thing? It would logically seem that any method that chills the beer too quickly would similarly damage it, but I’m not a scientist so I can’t really say if using dry ice will cause the same problems. Until then, it’s an intriguing idea, at least.

Inventor Kent Hodgson shows off his “Huski” quick beer chilling device.

 

Stella Artois’ Take On Their New Web Launch

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Those of you who have been following the online debate among beer bloggers regarding ethics which was sparked by e-mail many of us received regarding the new Stella Artois website launch will no doubt be intrigued by their latest press release, which was about the website re-launch. In it, they claim that traffic has increased twenty-fold since the re-launch.

Here’s the part I think many of you will find interesting:

Both the mainstream media community as well as the social media internet community have broadly praised the website, developed by Lowe Worldwide under the direction of the Global Stella Artois brand team, and it has been awarded ‘Site of the Week’ status by the FWA.

“The interesting thing is that people are also staying on our site much longer than industry average estimates of 45 seconds,” said Neil Gannon, Global Marketing Manager for Stella Artois. “In fact, the main site attracts a viewing time of four minutes, with many people watching the short La Bouteille film, which also serves as the navigation for the site, for well over five minutes. And 30% of visits to our site are through word of mouth, rather than search engines, which is a really nice compliment,”

Reader reactions on industry blog Ads of the World (which advised readers to put aside at least half an hour to view the site) included “Wonderful! Engaging and entertaining”, whilst “Captivating, original and exciting” was the reaction from Welcome to the Future whose readers gave the site 4.8 out of 5.0. Contagious Magazine called the site an “online epic”, whilst Clare Beale, Editor of industry publication Campaign magazine and contributor to The Independent newspaper in the United Kingdom, called the website “cunning” and “with an entertainment value that means that viewers will spend time on the site and return for more.”

My initial reaction is that it clearly shows how they intended to use the beer blogging community as well as the online community generally. But I’ve been drinking seemingly non-stop in Germany for the last two days, slightly sleep-deprived and wanting desperately to go to sleep so I’m in no condition to give this my usual overthinking. So instead I’ll ask you what you think about this latest press release from Stella Artois and whether or not it has any relevance or effect on our earlier dialogues?